December 7, 2011   18 notes

Squashed: Marriage, that blessed arrangement, that dream within a dream

zombiecuddle:

squashed:

zombiecuddle writes:

I do not think most people know what the social goals of marriage are, I do not agree that they are universally good things so far as I understand them, and I am woefully unconvinced our present social and policy approach to marriage does anything to achieve them. Ban all…

So, I mostly agree with you here. I should start by admitting (as I kind of already did) that I am sort of deliberately being a bull in a china shop.

The reason I agree with your post is because its bottom line is basically “marriage is, in theory but not always in practice, a beautiful and wonderful thing for some people,” which, okay, yes. I’m even okay with people celebrating marriages and reaching out to family and community to support the new union!

Re: weddings being a motivation for people to get married, I was being a bit hyperbolic but yes I do actually believe that a VERY LARGE number of people get married because they think getting married is awesome. I have millions of divorces backing me up, not to mention however many episodes of “Say Yes to the Dress” they’ve made, QED as far as I’m concerned; I mean, jesus, how many (very young!) girls have you met in your life who think about and plan their wedding? It’s an enormous cultural expectation and to a lot of young women (still!) it is the single biggest event that will happen in their lives. Is this a good thing? Maybe. I say probably not.

You’re also committing a basic fallacy here. Just because the big white wedding wasn’t an impetus for you marriage, or some of the best marriages you’ve seen, doesn’t mean it isn’t an impetus for anyone. Remember, changes in incentives don’t have to change the behavior of the average person, they only have to change the behavior of the marginal person, i.e., the most frivolous, least forward-looking person. Are some of those people getting married for dumb reasons related to our cultural mania and the marriage-industrial complex? Absolutely. Are people getting married for greencards and hospital rights and health insurance? Absofuckingbetyourass!

So does all this accomplish our stated social goal of encouraging stable families? I’m gonna go ahead and say “no.”

And look, neither of us has really gotten into the way marriage distorts other aspects of public life. You brought up domestic violence; there’s a really strong bias against prosecuting criminal acts that occur within marriages. Why? Because we’re all supposed to be invested in the sanctity of that union, even though I personally don’t give a shit about the union between two people I don’t know and I sure do care about enforcing laws against criminal violence. It’s bad for society at large to be this involved with people’s relationships. I would also argue that it’s by definition exclusionary. American culture and politics as a whole is always going to be decades behind liberalization in the way people think about interpersonal relationships so why can’t we acknowledge that? Even if gay marriage is passed there are still plenty of stable family structures that remain unrecognized.

It’s arrogant to assume we’re getting this right for all of the population, or even most. The divorce rate is an awfully compelling argument on my side that the political and cultural institution of marriage is a total failure, even if individual relationships (like yours, and my parents’) are successes. We don’t have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but can we fucking drain that damn bath already?

We’re probably pretty close to the same page on this one—and any disagreement is going to come down to nuanced policy questions that bore normal people. If people get married for good reasons, that’s great. If they get married for stupid reasons, that’s stupid. Beyond that, things get really tricky and technical. (How do you handle domestic violence prosecutions when the victim wants them dropped because she’s still in a relationship with her abuser? How do you handle retaliatory accusations from abusers who are trying to turn the tables? And do we treat this as a “marriage” issue or more of a criminal issue?) Things also get tricky with the word “incentivize.” Because what are we talking about? Tax policy? Social pressure? and any time we talk about social pressure, things get fuzzy.

Let’s separate weddings from marriages. Weddings are cool. I think my own wedding was, without question, the single biggest event in my life so far. I don’t see a bigget single event on the horizon. I think graduations are tedious. I plan on missing my funeral. That said, a wedding is a one day deal. It’s basecamp, not the summit. Don’t be a hater—but beyond that, I’m not likely to disagree with any criticism you have of the white-dress-industrial-complex.

On the other hand, who you marry and how you conduct that relationship might very well be the most important aspect of your life. Getting married isn’t difficult. But building a stable and lasting relationship is a pretty awesome thing. It takes a lot of money/influence/academic citations/etc. to eclipse that sort of thing. If marriage is part of your dream, it may not be a bad dream. And if some people cut some corners to get there? I can understand it. Though, of course, that’s not a good idea. This isn’t something you can fake.

I would also argue that it’s by definition exclusionary.

It’s good that we both chose colleges based on their broad and egalatarian admissions standards.

In seriousness, yes. We’re struggling, as a society, to figure out what marriage means. It’s a struggle worth having. I would rather get it right than give up on it. We don’t have a particularly systemic approach to relationships—we both know that. We sort of feel things out. We make up rules as we go along—then break them when we realize how stupid they are. In many cases, it turns out there were good ideas for rules developed over centuries of trial and error. In other cases, they were stupid rules.

It’s arrogant to assume we’re getting this right for all of the population, or even most. The divorce rate is an awfully compelling argument on my side that the political and cultural institution of marriage is a total failure, even if individual relationships (like yours, and my parents’) are successes. We don’t have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but can we fucking drain that damn bath already?

Maybe. What exactly are we proposing? Honestly, I suspect I’d agree with most proposals you have—or possibly offer a different proposal to achieve the same end. Marriage for health insurance, for example, is a bad plan. I’d prefer it weren’t necessary. Immigration is slightly trickier. Cancel stupid shows about wedding dresses? If I had the power, I’d do it. Reduce stigma on anybody over a certain age who isn’t married? Of course.

Bottom line: I think marriage is an important thing. I think any state that wants to pay attention to how society is constructed needs to acknowledge that it exists. I think policies should be constructed with that acknowledgement in mind.

  1. squashedcomments reblogged this from zombiecuddle and added:
    We’re probably pretty close to the same page on this one—and any disagreement is going to come down to nuanced policy...
  2. zombiecuddle reblogged this from squashed and added:
    So, I mostly agree with you...should start by admitting (as I kind of already did) that I...
  3. sexgenderbody reblogged this from squashed
  4. squashed reblogged this from zombiecuddle and added:
    zombiecuddle writes:...He elaborates a bit here. Marriage and every topic connected to it...
  5. littleorphanammo said: The PRIMARY reason I got married was a technical, legal issue (I am a dirty Canadian). If there had not been the immigration thing to deal with, I would not have. It always seemed like such a farce to me.
  6. jasencomstock reblogged this from zombiecuddle
  7. zombiecuddle posted this